#1 2010-07-16 10:51:21

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Hi there,

there are few ways of implementing multilingual site

1 folders (like used here) example.com/en/
2 TLD - example.co.uk example.de
3 Subdomains en.example.com de.example com

It would be nice to implement all this possibilities in CMS.

I know Ionize cannot handle multiple sites at this time, but it woul be nice to have this options in future releases.

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#2 2010-07-16 13:57:17

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Also, as I can see "page" has same ID no matter which language user selects.

From SEO poit of view that is bad.

ID should be some internal identifier and page name in address bar should be customizable (regarding which language site is viewed in)

Please, correct me if I got something wrong here.

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#3 2010-07-16 19:40:26

Michel-Ange
Ionize Core Team
From: Paris, France
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 927
Website

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Hi Porga,

Thanks for your message.

About multilingual websites :

Ionize uses the first approach you describe : the lang code is in the URL.
So http://my_domain.tld/en/my_page is the english version of the french version http://my_domain.tld/fr/my_page (and vice and versa)
The 2 contents will be correctly referenced by google. Google has no problem with these kind of URL and a user who search on google.fr will find the french version without problem.

2 domains means what it mean : 2 different content.
Most of the big companies have one domain / country and the content of each website is quite different.
That's mean 2 different websites, so 2 Ionize installation.
If content is different, people who update each content are mostly not the same. In fact, we are speaking in this case about 2 different websites. wink

Sub-domains are near from 2 domains because we also suppose 2 different content.


About the pages IDs :
We are thinking about changing the page URL part per language. This will be added in the 0.9.5 I think.
The adress bar page title can already be changed.

Hope this answered to your questions !


Inspiration & Innovation : Websites by Partikule, Agence Web Paris

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#4 2010-07-16 22:56:09

Michel-Ange
Ionize Core Team
From: Paris, France
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 927
Website

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Porga,

Some precision about what I told regarding the languages and websites :
I was working a long time for a very big company (more than 200.000 people worldwide) and one of my job part was to be in charge of Internet website of France.  That's why I have this point of view regarding the content separation : Each country introduce services and product differently and having one CMS for all the country is just insane !

Also working as freelance for a french consulting company with a sub-company in England, I can ensure you that if the the range of activities is a little bit different, it's enough to justify two separated contents. your client has really to understand that, it will save a lot of time and help him managing cultural diffrences in the future.

If we're speaking about a small company website, company which is sure every (or most of) the content can or will be translated, you can safely install one Ionize for multilingual content.

I think the most important is the solution answers your needs and to remember that multilingual "available" content will need a hard work from your client...

Again, welcome on Ionize, Porga.
If you have suggestion, we are open and motivated by your expriences with Ionize !

smile


Inspiration & Innovation : Websites by Partikule, Agence Web Paris

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#5 2010-07-18 10:21:38

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Ok, everything you talk about nakes sense except when we talk about travel agencies or travel presentation site for hotel (example).

There you have same content on as many languages possible.

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#6 2010-07-18 19:31:50

Michel-Ange
Ionize Core Team
From: Paris, France
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 927
Website

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Right.

About hotels : Normaly, in this case, the whole content sould be translated in all languages. So lang code in URL approach should be OK. Again, it a point of view and the question can be still open.

For travel agency, it's of course another story : 2 or 3 domains or sub-domains can be complex to manage. After a quick look at booking.com for example, they manage the languages through the URL. Tripadvisor maybe have one website per language (domain based) but I think the database in centralized, even one request gives not the same results in french or in italian... At this level, they manage the cultural differences and the IP from the visitor I think.

Anyway, what will be done in Ionize is to give the ability to choose what happens when a content isn't translated :
- Show 404
- Show the default language content (with the risk of looking strange / buggy by the visitor)
- Tell the visitor this content isn't translated


Inspiration & Innovation : Websites by Partikule, Agence Web Paris

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#7 2010-07-18 21:57:52

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Well, my experience in this issues is like this. Let say we want to make multilingual travel site.

We will present holiday houses for rent. All data entered will have predefined values for all languages. so user will be presented with form where he can select values for house description

ID1. Old house (checkbox)
ID2. New house (checkbox)
ID3. Flat in the building (checkbox)

ID1 is attribute in database and that attribute is table which holds translation of that sentence for every language available.

About news type WYSIWIG pages, it can be solved that Language flag is presented only for languages page is available in ( some sort of lower level language menu)

This aproach with lang predefined values (constants) can be something new in CMS-es field, because this way you could "dictate" to module developers that every developed module must have list os language constant, atleast those which show on frontent, so everyone can translate module (frontend) to other language.

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#8 2010-07-23 01:17:08

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

So plese, when can we expect custom urls by language?
Something like this:
Example.com/en/croatia/about-croatia.htm
Example.com/de/kroatien/uber-kroatien.htm

Extensions, .htm .html are optional, but it would be nice to have them, like in joomla...

If this can be expected soon, i would choose Ionize as primary CMS, and I am sure lots ofvpeople needs multilang support.

Im ready to help translate CMS in croatian...

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#9 2010-07-23 08:40:20

Kink
Ion Tester
From: France
Registered: 2010-06-04
Posts: 581

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Porga, see this post for .htm extension :


Webmaster / OUF!WEB

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#10 2010-07-23 09:12:57

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Super, thank you!

Now just to hear confirmation about language specific url..

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#11 2010-07-25 09:16:20

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Please Michel-Ange,

Can you tell us when do you plan to sort out issue with multilingual URL-s?

Example.com/en/croatia/about-croatia.htm
Example.com/de/kroatien/uber-kroatien.htm

When is next version planned?

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#12 2010-07-26 15:13:12

Michel-Ange
Ionize Core Team
From: Paris, France
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 927
Website

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Hi Porga,

I know you're very impatient, and you're right smile

I'm thinking about implementing what you suggested. Unfortunately, this functionnality needs a lot of modification of the existing classes and functions.

The next version (0.9.5) will perhaps not include this new feature, but I hope for the 0.9.6 !


Inspiration & Innovation : Websites by Partikule, Agence Web Paris

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#13 2010-07-26 15:14:05

toopixel
Ionize Core Team
From: Geneva
Registered: 2010-04-20
Posts: 272
Website

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

We have been long time discussing this feature with Michel-Ange, and we first have to "rethink" the way the page core system is done. We have brainstormed about a separate menu builder tool, but nothing have been decided yet. We will ask the community soon about the way everybody think this new tool should be (or shouldn't be) done. We'll let you know soon !


Too Pixel is a web agency located in Geneva, Switzerland

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#14 2010-07-26 17:37:37

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Thank You.

I don want to squeeze the theme any more, but I can only tell you this. I looked and installed at least 30 CMSes past few days, and when it comes to multilingual sites, ether they do not have it, or implementation is so complicated that you have to study it days...

So, that can be plus for ionize at this field.

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#15 2010-07-26 17:47:50

Michel-Ange
Ionize Core Team
From: Paris, France
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 927
Website

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

Porga,

Believe us, we know that, and we are thinking about your request very seriously.

As Toopixel told you, we are thinking about your request, but we think also make it working with an independant navigation builder tool, because pages as menu items is a little bit confusing and can become complex for big websites.


Inspiration & Innovation : Websites by Partikule, Agence Web Paris

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#16 2010-07-26 17:52:10

toopixel
Ionize Core Team
From: Geneva
Registered: 2010-04-20
Posts: 272
Website

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

We know it's a big "plus" for Ionize, that's why we considered seriously your request, but it can't be done fast, we want a reliable and long term solution, and for that we have to reorganize the core differently first.

To release this new feature, it can take us some time, especially now that we are in a heavy load period of work, so don't expect a solution before middle of Septembre... however the installer will make that your old urls will be converted automagically to the new system, so don't worry about building your url's with the current system, you don't take much risk here.

Lastly, I would like to say that we need people to help us coding the CMS and improving, all contributions are welcomed, espcially to lower the delays regarding releasing of new features like the url multilingual. Join the team !

Last edited by toopixel (2010-07-26 17:57:43)


Too Pixel is a web agency located in Geneva, Switzerland

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#17 2010-07-26 21:58:42

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

toopixel wrote:

Join the team !

Thank you, I would if I knew programming enough.

But maybe I can help you with translations soon.

And ideas, of course.....

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#18 2010-07-27 13:34:01

porga
Ion Tester
From: Croatia
Registered: 2010-07-16
Posts: 164

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

If you decide to make changes in the core please think about one thing more.

We can have two types of multilingual site:

1. Exact replica on all languages (same pages and articles)
2. Language (country) specific site (different pages and articles)

If you offer this choice in your CMS you will be the first one.

First situation is for turistic sites for example and second for companies with different offer and news in different countries.

So in first case all modules should have centralized management and values presented in different languages (event calendar) and in second case, every country has its own events and news.

I hope you understand what I mean.

Also, language flags should work differently, in first case they could lead on same page on different language, and in second case on homepage of different language.

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#19 2010-07-27 20:12:39

toopixel
Ionize Core Team
From: Geneva
Registered: 2010-04-20
Posts: 272
Website

Re: Language spreading over domains and subdomains

For the second option, I believe it is smarter (and easier) to have 2 installations of ionize side by side, otherwise we will come with an overcomplex CMS which will not be easy to use, and that's what we don't want.

What we was considering is when a language is not available, to fetch the default language content instead (as an option in the cms of course).


Too Pixel is a web agency located in Geneva, Switzerland

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What's Ionize ?

Ionize is an Open Source Content Management System created by webdesigners for webdesigners.

Created and maintained by Partikule and Toopixel, Ionize wants to be the easiest and most powerful CMS.

Can I help ?

Because talent is nothing without involvement, we are looking for motivated coders and webdesigners to join the project team.

Resources

Website : ionizecms.com
Documentation : doc.ionizecms.com

Development : Ionize on GitHub
Translations : Ionize Translations